Professor Bolaji Akinyemi, former External Affairs Minister, speaks with Yakubu Mohammed and Yusuf Mohammed of Newswatchplus
Newswatchplus: The rebirth of democracy was in 1999. By May 2024, Nigeria will be turning 25 years of democracy. Has it delivered the goods? Your assessment please.
Akinyemi: You are basing the whole exercise on what I would call a false setting. We have never had democracy in this country. Whether it’s 1999 or 1960. But since you want to focus on 1999, I will also focus on 1999.
You know as well as I know that every election held in Nigeria had been an ‘arrangee’ election. Let’s take the one that led to independence. If you don’t have a credible census figure, on what do you divide and allocate it? You know that our census, starting from the 1920s, when the British first allocated figures to us, they never counted anybody. They just decided this is the figure for Nigeria and this is how it would be allocated. So, the foundation was faulty. That’s one.
Secondly, one man, one vote was the system that was put in place to get our representatives but you and I know that the voting was not credible. My father contested three elections before he won the third one from the rural area. That’s where the Action Group was in the old West. But you also know that the way and manner votes were cast, if you had a model that you would put this against, it didn’t fit any model. The counting might have been credible but the votes weren’t. That probably was the closet we had to clean election. By the time of the next election. Operation wetie had started in the West.
Newswatchplus: we already had independence then.
Akinyemi: Yes we’ve had independence. And the Tiv rebellion had been going on even before independence. Remember what they used to say to Akintola. ‘’You saw my hand but not my heart.’’ In other words, ‘’I would vote for you but I’m not with you.’’ Tell me, at what stage did we ever have credible elections? But what should be of more interest to you is this: you build on a foundation. Until midnight of September 30, 1960, the governor of the region could veto anything. That was the system the British practiced for the 100 years that they were here. They were not practicing democracy. So what were they teaching us? They say it would take you six years for GCE, then it became five years but at least, we understood the educational system: What the teacher taught us was what we built upon. You didn’t enter class one and jumped to the next class. We started one plus one and one plus two. And the teacher found a way of inculcating that in us. How to read and how to write. That’s the essence of building a foundation. They never built a democratic foundation for us. It was autocratic. So where was Balewa supposed to get the idea that the opposition was there to be consulted. When all the moment of his induction under the British, he knew the governor or the governor general could veto any legislation passed by the House of Representatives or Assembly. We had no foundation. I don’t know where we were supposed to get democracy. Let’s go to 1999. Everybody knows the military went to get Obasanjo out of prison in order for him to run for office. The military party was the PDP. I would say it on record. The AD was not qualified to be registered. Again, you interfered, to me, negatively with the system from the beginning because you said you wanted to appease the Yoruba who were supporters of Abiola. Again, an assumption based on a false setting, because whatever you may say about Abiola, he got widespread electoral support in that election. If NADECO was premised on revalidation of June 12, how then would you say giving the Yorubas a party was to appease them? I was a member of NADECO. It wasn’t a uni-focused movement. There are those who were there because they just wanted to get rid of the military. There were those who were there because they wanted a revalidation of June 12. There were those who were there because they wanted a reconstruction of the county. What they call a return to restructuring. A return to true federalism. I’m a professor of political science. There’s nothing called true federalism. And I tell my people this: every nation designs a federalism that takes account of its environment. The federalism practiced in Canada is even different from the federalism practiced in neighbouring United States. The federalism that is even now through the back door being practiced in Britain is different from the one being practiced in Australia. So, there’s nothing like true federalism. But I understand what they mean. Which is that we want some representative government that would be a reflection of the nationalities and principalities that represent the totality of what we call Nigeria. People don’t seem to understand the Ogonis. They feel insulted by being given a local government. Why don’t they call it Ogoni cantonment? Coin one word that will satisfy them. That will recognise that you are an important element of the totality of what we call Nigeria. But we can’t call you a local government and then you know there’s somebody who maybe it is only 5000 that is also called local government because the governor comes from there or a lieutenant colonel comes from there. And that’s why they got a local government. That wouldn’t stop the agitation for recognition by the Ogonis. I just used the Ogonis as an example. It could be any of the localities calling for recognition in Nigeria. That’s what people mean when they talk about true federalism. But they aren’t professors of political science, so I don’t blame them for thinking that this thing called federalism is the same all over the world. It is our responsibility to educate them. But the elite will not do that because they have vested interest in the mess of what Adelabu used to call ‘’the peculiar mess.’’ That is Nigeria for you. As long as the struggle is going on, you will have people benefiting from it.
In 1999, the military was still a factor. And again, let me put this on record. It is only a reality that the creator of a system would have his own vested interest in what he is creating. After all, that is what determines what he is creating. That’s his own understanding that this is the solution to the problem. Three times General Abdulsalami Abubakar invited me to meet him when he became Head of State. If you like, you call me naïve. I thought I was being honest. I went to the leaders of NADECO (of which I was a member). We called a meeting and they said ‘’don’t go! Why does he want to meet you?’’ I was blackmailed by the fact that people in NADECO had always been suspicious of me. They thought I was a military agent, most specifically an IBB guy. They thought I was representing IBB’s interest. IBB fired me from his cabinet. Come on! I’m a professor. Why would I be an agent of anybody? Especially when I feel that I know more about the consequences of this thing than the people sitting there. But no. if I had insisted on going, they would have said ‘’we told you he is a military agent.’’ I didn’t go. And each time General Abdulsalami and I speak now, and I accuse him of the mess he left us with in the constitution, he would say ‘’but I asked you to let us meet.’’
Newswatchplus: You could have corrected it if you had met him?
Akinyemi: I could have corrected it. In that constitution, he didn’t have an expert in political science. He had someone representing journalists. Remi Oyo. But you can’t compare the depth of knowledge of democratic system of Remi Oyo with Bolaji Akinyemi. I studied mine up to PH.D level. I started teaching it in the university. I became a professor. So, Abdulsalami did his best but the military had vested interest. Then you had the Bola Ige (AD). They had vested interest. And my people (the Yorubas) have a saying that in a village the witch lost her cat and the whole village came out to help her look for the cat. And there are people looking for the cat to kill that cat. There are others looking for that cat to appease the witch. There are others looking for that cat to drive it further away from the village. So you cannot say we were all there.
Newsatchplus: No common interest?
Akinyemi: No! There was no common interest. In the 1999 election, was it free and fair? Go and read the report of the international observers. It was an ‘arrangee’ election. So we have a return to civilian rule or we can call it a proto-civilian rule in 1999. It wasn’t democracy.
Newsatchplus: While you were talking about different groups not having a common interest, I was reminded of the fact that in 2014, you were the deputy chairman of the National Conference. At this juncture in our national life, do you think we need another national conference or do you think the resolution of that confab should be implemented by this administration?
Akinyemi: There are three reports that should be put on the table. The first is the Justice Uwais panel report. I was a member of the justice Uwais panel. That’s number one. Number two is the report of the 2014 conference. Number three is the El-Rufai, APC report. For me, put these three on the table. Fortunately, we have three leading parties now. APC members, Labour Party members and PDP members. If you like maybe TUC, maybe NANS. In Nigeria we are about 240 million people. There will be about 240 million groups. Maybe if we just limit it to the three political parties, let each bring about 20, then sit around the table for nine months and submit a consolidated report to the government of the day. And that report would now be submitted to the national assembly. Frankly, I would have preferred getting the national assembly to first of all, amend the constitution to provide for a referendum because there’s no provision for a referendum in our constitution. So you can’t go and have a referendum. So let them first of all provide and then the report submitted to the president is submitted to a referendum of Nigerians. That’s my answer to your question.
Newswatchplus: This in a way, looks like a device that would correct the error that we have had since 1999. You said the foundation is faulty. You are very confident of this arrangement being a way of correcting the errors of 1999. Are you saying that after 1999,
all the elections we have had in this country had their faults and couldn’t stand the test of credibility?
Akinyemi: My answer would be yes and no. This is not a university class. I say this because, is there any election in any country that would stand the test of democratic stability? How do you define democracy? Is it the American system with its electoral college that allowed Trump to defeat Mrs Clinton who had the majority vote? That’s their definition of democracy. Is it the British system where your dad’s constituency, the number of people in his constituency, may be larger than mine? But it’s one MP, one constituency. Is that the definition of democracy? Is it the French model where you had an executive president based on one man, one vote, and he must have 50 +1 if you want to exclude second running or even after you have elected him, you also must elect a national assembly. So you know, that’s a mixed bag. Which one is democratic?
In our own, somebody has 35% and you say he is elected president. But then my mind goes back to Kennedy. I think Kennedy won with 30 something per cent. That’s why i said yes and no. If you want to talk about pristine democracy, then no. But something we manage, we patch up. Just like the tyre of your car that you patch up and manage and it takes you from here to Kaduna, then you say you had the tyre that ran. We have been managing our democracy. I remember President Yar’Adua said to us ‘’I know I didn’t win this election. I know it’s not credible. Please come to me and help me build a model that will produce a credible and acceptable election. And I promise you, I will implement it.’’ I’m not into governance, I was only in the corridor. Rather than in the bedroom but I know there’s no government that is supposed to pledge itself to implementing a report that has not even been written. Unless they are going to give you a copy of what they expect you to submit to them. And he never did. He never directed us. He never gave us any proposal. And when we submitted the report to him, he still repeated it, i will implement it because I have faith in the credibility of people who wrote it. Unfortunately by that time he was ill. I knew the man was dying. And the PDP, may God send them to hell. Anenih and co took advantage of that. Someone told us that they had sent for Uwais when they wanted to discuss. But Justice Uwais, behaving like the judge he had been, said ‘’ what do they want me for? We’ve written the report. It’s got nothing to do with me.’’ So he never went. The president then presented the report and told the cabinet he’s committed to the report and I intend to implement but I’ll like to have your views. I have been a member of a cabinet. Your president, says he is for something, and then he is asking for your views. Let me give you an illustration. I’m sure you have heard of the Technical Aid Corps scheme. I had prepared a memorandum for cabinet. Of course I briefed IBB. He was in favour of it 100
per cent. So, I submitted it to the cabinet and he called me and introduced the memorandum and asked cabinet for approval. Different people started speaking. Some said they like it but they already have a Youth Service corps, so this thing should be under them not External Affairs. There were those who were in favour. But majority of the cabinet was opposed to it. They didn’t really understand what it was all about. Usually the last person to speak was the Chief of General Staff. And this time it was still Ukiwe. Ukiwe said ‘’ what is this? I’m surprised that this is coming from a cabinet member who is a professor. When I was directing staff of some military, if something like this was submitted by a director, I would drop him out of the service. This has no value.’’ I was livid. I was angry. Not only that he opposed it, he had insulted me. So, as soon as he finished speaking, I raised my hand. I wasn’t recognised by the President. Excuse me sir, excuse me sir. Jubril Aminu kicked me under the table. He was Minister of Education which was related to what I presented. Be quiet he said. I was grumbling. I was still angry. Finally, IBB said ‘’External Affairs, you have heard the views of most of your colleagues. The conclusion is that cabinet approves of this, do the correction according to their views, and implement without bringing it back to cabinet. Jubril Aminu said you would have spoilt. I thanked him.
Newsatchplus: You seem to have strong faith in Uwais report. You seem to suggest that with Uwais report you think it would correct some of the things you think are wrong with our democracy.
Akinyemi: Sorry I haven’t finished. The cabinet: every single member of the Yar’Adua cabinet said I am in favour sir. I approve sir. That night, Anenih led a group of PDP leaders to him. Mr. President, you shouldn’t have done this. This is how we win elections. These people have overturned everything. We will never win an election in this country with the reforms that they have suggested. And which you have committed yourself to. I think it was Babagana Kingibe who told me the story because he was there. He said Yar’Adua was so tired but he said he would re-submit it to the cabinet. He said which he did the following meeting. And every member of the cabinet voted against it. And that was the end.
Newswatchplus: That was the end of it?
Akinyemi: Yes that was the end of it. But having said that, to expand on your question. You see, both Uwais report, and the 2014 national conference bits and pieces of it had actually been implemented by the National Assembly without giving credit to those two documents. For example, the electoral reform. The only problem is when you are building a house, you have a place for the window, and you have a place for the door. You can’t put the window where the door is supposed to be or build the window and not build the door? We suggested (although we were wrong) that the chairman and members of INEC should be screened by the National Judicial Council (NJC). They should advertise, screen and then send their report to the president shortlisting three or so, and then the president should send this to national assembly, so there would be three candidates. Uwais said, I’m warning you people. You don’t know the NJC. But as of that time, we didn’t know the inner workings of the NJC. We didn’t know there was corruption going on there. We didn’t know about the scandals. He knew as a former chief justice and he was warning us. Now, I wouldn’t go near NJC with anything.
Should we have a council of Mallams and Bishops? I can talk about Bishops, I wouldn’t go near them because it’s money that talks in appointments of Bishops now. I don’t know about Mallams. So what then is the solution, because that’s one critical recommendation that we made in order to guarantee the independence of INEC.
You see, when I listen to people on TV, I realise it’s so easy to say what is wrong than talking about the solution.
Newswatchplus: So are you saying there’s no hope?
Akinyemi: Honestly, there’s no hope. I had even thought: do we go to ECOWAS or Commonwealth, let Barbados give us chairman of INEC, Canada give us a member, Australia give us a member. Do we do that? Should that
be the solution? Maybe because I don’t know what’s going on in these countries. Maybe because I don’t read their newspapers. I won’t forget what the Chinese ambassador said to a delegation of Nigerians who had just returned from China three months ago. He said if the Chinese press were to write about China what the Nigerian press writes about Nigeria, nobody would go to China. He said we are too critical and we demarket our country all the time. And it’s true. If you know how many things I send to Reuben Abati and Rufai Oseni when I’m watching that morning show to say no that is wrong that’s not the position. At times they use my views, most times they just ignore me because I know that what they are talking about is not accurate. It’s not correct. But it’s because the way for you to become popular in Nigeria is to be negative even when you are wrong. When Nigerians don’t know, they expect you (journalists) to do the thinking for them. You are the thinking elite, because the other people are thinking of how they will pay school fees and rent. So they expect you to do it, forgetting that you have problems of your own. So, the answer is I don’t think there’s a solution. We just have to continue to manage with what we have and hope. We are a young country. We are only 63 years old. Give us time to mature. With hope and, you know it’s like the wife whose mother didn’t teach her properly how to mix stew. When she starts in the new house, it’s not going to taste like mama’s stew. But over time, she gets better
and not worse. So maybe, we will get better over time, if we are patient. But the fact is, again to go back to your original question, we have never had democracy. We have had civilian rule.
Newswatchplus: Ok this ‘’civilian rule’’ we have had since 1999, are you hopeful that with time we could improve? Are you saying that in the long run, we will satisfy our demands and aspirations?
Akinyemi: No! If I’m awarding marks, what kind of mark do you think I would award to a country given the totality of its revenue for many years? I look at it and do a reconstruction of how much this money has been spent and on what. And in order to make sure that I weed out my biases, I take the UN human index development (HID) and look at it. Education, health, this and that, we are going down every year. Unless Ghana Must Go came with a manuscript, I cannot award pass mark. Given the totality of revenue we have made since 1959 on oil. Just from oil. We have probably more billionaires than in any other part of Africa. Why? It’s because our common wealth has been stolen. And it is being stolen. It is being stolen. So how can I award pass mark? No I can’t award pass mark. Earlier, we were talking about Murtala. He was high up there giving us hope with a vision. He believed in Nigeria. What he was always asking me each time we met is ‘’I am not satisfied with where we are. How can we go up higher? And at times, if I want to tease him if he’s in a good mood, I would say ‘’Oga you are the head of state. You gave me a little institution to run. If you are happy with the way I’m running that one, let me go back to my office. And he would say that institute where I sent you is supposed to be a thinking institute. So I asked you how do we go from here to there?
And I would answer him. Only once did he ever get angry with me. That had to do with something else: a problem between me and my chairman. And he resolved it like a diplomat, not like a military man. And after him, what happened? Our leadership index fell down. Go and read about the Shagari period and Buhari’s first coming. And then IBB. And then after IBB, Abacha. After Abacha, Obasanjo.
I miss Murtala Muhammed. Some people say it’s because I didn’t know him. But we saw what he did. I want someone who can put the fear of God into all of us. In Buhari’s second coming he said, if we don’t kill corruption, corruption would kill us. Well he didn’t kill corruption. It got worse under him. Again, I don’t know. You should know Yakubu because you have your ears to the ground. Somebody had written and said that he would provide the evidence for me, that that his illness was because they tried to poison him and after he got over that, he decided to leave the system alone. I don’t know because I am not within the system. Even during the campaign he wasn’t too strong. So I wasn’t surprised that he took ill after he go into office. But the person who told me this, said he would show me the evidence.
Newswatchplus: So would it not be wrong to blame his illness for the fact that he just failed and his unmitigated disaster cannot be blamed on his illness?
Akinyemi: Yes. What I was expecting was any president of Nigeria to do, is, if you win the election in February, let’s assume that I had a blank head up until the election February and then I get elected. Now, I need a first class person in economics. You and you, I need somebody in Agriculture. Look if you don’t have a candidate, ask your friends. This is what IBB did. He would ask. And he would know who to ask. And he would tell you if you don’t give me a candidate, don’t turn around and tell me I disappointed you. So you yourself will have to go into the field and think. You would know who to talk to. And maybe he would give you two or three names. And then you go back to IBB with that. Knowing IBB, he knows how to pull one name out of the bag. That’s what I expected of Buhari but he never did. In other words, the totality of him was to revenge being overthrown.
Newswatchplus: But he even failed to do that
Akinyemi: The legacy of the first coming was better than legacy of his second coming. So you are right.
Newswatchplus: What do you think of the size
of Nigeria’s delegation to Cop28 in Dubai considering the state of the economy? Some are saying the delegates are 1,411, while the government has stated that it’s only 590. What do you think?
Akinyemi: It isn’t good optics. It’s bad.
Newswatchplus: Well, people are saying this government has been there for over six months now and we should give them time. But you know, you can detect how the evening would be from the morning. What do you see as the prospect of development?
Akinyemi: Hmm! Oh dear! We need better optics. Nigeria is not a banana republic. Thank God for that. If you plug the stealing of our oil, if you deploy the security offices in the North
West, North East and North Central so that farmers can go back to the farm, because there was a time in this country that agriculture was adding more to the GDP than oil. And the third one is plug corruption. You see the corruption is in three sectors that are critical. The civil servants even steal more money than the ministers. The civil servants would teach the ministers how to take their 12%. While the civil servants walk away with the rest. You have to plug that too. You can dismiss your minister at any time if you catch him but the civil servants are more difficult to deal with. They are even more difficult to detect but not entirely. If you decided to pay ex Mossad agents well, they would give you information about the state of account of your civil servants. You pay them a percentage of their findings. That’s their job. The Jews own all the banks, so they have access to their accounts. And then the national assembly members. Akpabio is not good optics. If I were the president of the senate, I would have called in this people and tell them look, we need six months to get Nigerians on our side. Don’t worry, after six months, you will get what you need. But for these six months, let’s play the good boys scout. And I know IBB played that game. The president can call Akpabio and say look, the security men have just brought this document to me. Within the military, there is unrest and we are the target. Akilu that time knew how to do that very well. So tell your guys there to pipe down. The young ones are hungry. That’s what I would do. So what’s wrong with Tinubu, why is he not doing this? Doesn’t he understand? And Tinubu must know that because of the nature of how he got into power, there is what they call the deep state. The deep state in Nigeria is made up of supporters of those who don’t want him in Nigeria in the first instance. This is the best time for you journalists because they will be leaking things to you. An example is the presidential yacht. A yacht that has already arrived. It wasn’t ordered by Tinubu. It was already paid for. But you need to pay for spare parts and technicians who would help you maintain it. But the way it was presented in the budget, a new thing, like it’s for his own pleasure. That’s the deep state in
operation. It should never have been called a presidential yacht. It should be called maintenance of naval whatever.
Newswatchplus: And it has always been there
Akinyemi: Yes it has always been there. But he got a bad rap. I blame his minister of defence. There are people who are not happy that you are there. His son attending FEC meeting and other events, taking Chagoury to Cop28. Imagine Chagoury is being listed as a confidant to the president to Cop28. It is not good optics. This raises the question: is Tinubu well enough to pay attention to these little details? And if he is not well enough, how about presidential aides who could cover up for him. And that’s the job of the chief of staff that he has. Is that one doing his job? That before my signature goes on this thing, you go through every line and draw my attention to booby traps. Nobody is doing that.
Newswatchplus: It seems the competence level is low
Akinyemi: Yes it is low. You asked the question: is the morning showing the evening? Well not yet. The morning is not good optics. I remember President Ronald Reagan. He was very ill. He has Alzheimer’s disease. He didn’t remember anything. Remember when they sold weapons for Contra war. He appeared before the senate and said he didn’t remember. The man was busy watching TV and at times begin to talk to you about his time in the army during the Second World War. It is his film he acted in that
he’s remembering. He never fought in the army. But he had first class aides who covered it up and took the decisions. And no one bothers because things are done right.
But it becomes a problem when you are making too many mistakes. Look at the house of the VP they want to renovate. I have been to the house of the VP. What is wrong with it? I would tell the VP let’s wait for one year until we have turned this economy around then we will look into it. Too many mistakes are piling up and they are coming too rapidly.
Newswatchplus: I think that people like you should begin to get involved somehow
Akinyemi: You guys and I have been together since 1970. How many years is that? So it’s time for the young ones to step in. Don’t forget. It’s just that I promised some people I won’t go after Obasanjo again. We need a college of statesmen in Nigeria. People who have been there and have seen it and have done it. People who would be behind the scene and be whispering into the ears of those who are there in front. And when there’s problem, people who can be called upon. People who the country have faith in.
Newswatchplus: Have we not exhausted them?
Akinyemi: Exactly!
Newswatchplus: So where are they?
Akinyemi: No they are there. But it is because some of them have become partisan in politics.
And this was why I was always attacking Obasanjo until I gave my promise not to talk about him again. But I remember somebody on a TV programme. He asked: Is Professor Akinyemi not part of the statesmen, why is he talking and he is asking other statesmen not to talk. Again they have got it wrong. I have never been a president. I have never been in the bedroom of power. I always say I have been in the corridors of power. So if you insist that I should join, I would join and be quiet because we need them. God bless Shagari. He is dead now. Shagari kept to the faith. Even Abdulsalami is keeping the faith. General Gowon is keeping the faith. My boss IBB is not. Plus his illness. So one cannot openly say ‘mechonu’ like the Igbos would say. Let people say I wonder what IBB is thinking about. If IBB were to talk I’m sure this country would be better. Let people be saying that rather IBB said this today and IBB said that tomorrow. Maybe you are right because I have only been able to mention three names. Maybe Anyaoku making four. It’s a pity that a country like Nigeria can only point to four because all the others are old. The super permanent secretaries, half of them are dead. At least let this four be there. If Obasanjo were to be quiet we would have five. And we could have people like Cardinal John Onaiyekan, the cardinal. But he is talking partisan politics. We could come up with 10 if each person would play his own role. Like I said I’m going to be 82 in one month time. Maybe I would be qualified to be included.
Newswatchplus: Of course you are qualified
Akinyemi: Well I’m not qualified because you are here now and I am talking
General laughter
Newswatchplus: We will play it down. But unfortunately we need your views now which may even qualify you for that.
Akinyemi: It’s a pity. There’s that saying about a country that need statesmen and a county that has statesmen. It’s a pity that we are country that needs statesmen because you won’t need statesmen if everything is going on right. Here we are trying to count. Ekwueme is dead, Shagari is dead, IBB is ill. There we are.
Newswatchplus: Where is Ukiwe?
Akinyemi: He is in Lagos. He is still around.
Newswatchplus: But the way they got rid of him I don’t think….
Akinyemi (cuts in): Exactly. He was part of NADECO. He asked Ndubisi Kanu to represent him in the leadership of NADECO. I could talk more about that but I should leave that alone. TY Danjuma was one of the leader of NADECO until he asked Dan Suleiman to now represent him. I never bought into this represent me business. You are in it, you are in it. It shouldn’t be by proxy. TY Danjuma is alive but he doesn’t talk unless it’s a matter of Taraba politics.
